A transcript of two programmes you can watch here on YouTube.
They feature AR George Owens and Iris Owens' Philip Experiment. It's really interesting to see the group in action around the table. I'm not so sure there's some strange force at work tipping the table. I mean they don't believe there's a ghost tipping the table - that's the whole point of the experiment. But they do seem to believe there's some weird force going on. And having done the old 'levitation' trick at school where you lift someone up - well no, you don't feel like you're doing anything. But that doesn't mean that you aren't.
The bumps are of course much more interesting - assuming someone isn't making them deliberately by cracking their knuckles on the table or something. You'd like to think they'd have the integrity not to. But perhaps meeting every week gets boring if nothing happens. If there are genuinely bumping noises, well that's something that does need explaining.
It would also be interesting to find out more about 'Lileth' from the other experiment that was running. I'd not heard of this before. I wonder how many other experiments have ever been run? The problem of course is that they're rather time-consuming and you need committed participants.
Philip the Imaginary
Ghost (1974 documentary).
Narrator:
Over the last hundred years or so there have been many groups of people who
meet regularly to sit in what are called mediumistic circles. This is done in
the hope of receiving messages from the spirits of their deceased friends and
relatives. In a typical sitting or séance the participants are seated with
their hands on top of the table, sometimes with their fingers touching,
sometimes not. It is said that the spirit who is supposed to be present often
causes a variety of strange physical effects to occur, as suggested by this
engraving made in 1871 when spiritualism was in its heyday. In the old days
there was serious doubt as to whether these phenomena were genuine. It was believed
that for them to occur, a specially endowed person known as a spirit medium had
to be present if the spirits were to be able to manifest these effects.
Undoubtedly many of these spirit mediums were fraudulent.
It was also easy to cheat
because it was believed that the sittings or seances had to be in darkness or
in a subdued light. Research by Sir William Crookes who worked with the famous
medium D D Home in a good light, and by Harry Price and other famous investigators
who studied Stella Cranshaw in 1923, proved that some of these physical
phenomena were genuine and not the result of trickery. Whether we believe in
spirits or not, it shows that there are forces in the universe at present
unknown to science, and different from the four forces known to physicists.
In 1972 a
group consisting of eight members of the Society for Psychical Research in Toronto,
Canada, decided to find out more about this mysterious force. They wanted to
find out firstly whether it could be produced in full light. Secondly, whether
a spirit medium was necessary or if instead it could be generated by ordinary
people. And thirdly, if the force was produced by disembodied spirit, or
instead was generated by the living participants in the circle. Dr George Owen,
director of the Toronto SPR, guided the sessions from the beginning.
George Owens: The
members of the group are regarded as perfectly normal people, or as normal as
anyone can actually be. Four are housewives, Sue, Dorothy, Andi and Iris. Sid
is a salesman, Bernice an accountant, Al is an engineer, and Lorne a designer.
None of them claimed to be a medium. Psychical research is just one of their many
diverse interests. As researchers the group had to be scrupulous in their
approach. The first problem they had to solve was this – how to be sure that if
they got physical effects, these were not due to a spirit. So they decided to
make up a completely fictional character. An imaginary person with the given
name of Philip, and a completely imaginary biography. A week later, she [Sue] narrated
the story of Philip.
“Philip was
as aristocratic Englishman, living in the middle 1600s at the time of Oliver
Cromwell. He was married to a beautiful but cold and frigid wife Dorothea. One
day when out riding Philip came across a gypsy encampment and saw there a
beautiful gypsy girl, Margot, and fell instantly in love with her. He brought
her back secretly to live in the gatehouse near the stables of Diddington Manor,
his family home. For some time he kept his love nest a secret, but eventually Dorothea,
realising he was keeping someone else there, found Margot and accused her of witchcraft
and stealing her husband. Philip was too scared of losing his reputation and
his possessions to protest at the trial of Margot, and she was convicted of
witchcraft and burned at the stake. Philip was subsequently stricken with remorse.
Finally one morning his body was found at the bottom of the battlements where
he had cast himself in a fit of agony and remorse.
“Ooh that’s
nice story! You really used your imagination on that one!”
The group
discussed the character and life they had given Philip until they were all agreed
on the details. A picture was drawn by Andi and agreed to be a true likeness of
Philip. It should be stressed that although Diddington Manor is a real place,
there is no evidence that no one like Philip ever lived there. In addition,
some historical errors were deliberately introduced into the story to emphasise
its fictitious nature.
To
consolidate the idea of Philip and to put themselves in mutual rapport, the
group met weekly to meditate on Philip and his adventures. No apparition of Philip
appeared, but observers occasionally noted a slight mistiness in the centre of
the circle. However, this may merely have resulted from visual fatigue. In the
fall of 1973, the group changed their approach as the result of reading articles
by Mr [?] and Mr Brooksmith and Mr Hunt which appeared in the British SPR. These
investigators have got physical effects by sitting round the table as in the
old spiritual seances, but they created an atmosphere of jollity and relaxation.
They told jokes, sang songs and exhorted the table in a light-hearted way to
obey their commands. The Toronto group adopted the same approach, singing such
ditties as Lloyd George Knew My Father, to the tune of Onward Christian
Soldiers, playing music such as Greensleeves or Amazing Grace, and addressing
questions to the table as if it really were Philip.
And between
sittings, objects [familiar?] to Philip, such as fencing foils, 17th century
manuscripts and pictures of Diddington Hall were kept. For most sittings the
same four-legged table was used.
Narrator: It’s
not easy for eight responsible normal adults to fool around in this way. They
had to train themselves in a particular psychological attitude. They had to imitate
a stage comedian who may give a very farcical performance on stage, but off the
stage is sober and practical. As soon as the group adopted this new approach
they got phenomena. First there came a vibration in the table. Also raps came
out of the table. They seemed to come from inside the woodwork.
“Hello
Philip, are you there?” “Good morning Philip” “Hi Philip, I heard you bought
some more new horses.” “Come on, speak up, let’s hear some knocks.” “Come on
let’s get some bangs. Come on, let’s get going.” “Have you brought Dorothea
with you. Have you seen Dorothea lately? No? Would you like to see Dorothea
lately? No? Didn’t you love Dorothea in your time? No. That was two. Yes we
need them louder. Do it louder. Did you like Dorothea? (Knock knock). Ooh! Did
you love – Margot?! Yes! Say it again, did you love Margot? (Knock). Good.
(The table rocks
about).
GO: Then the
table would actually move, it would glide over the thick pile carpet or even rear
up on one or two legs only. Attempts to reproduce this motion by pushing always
failed. It was impossible to imitate the table’s spontaneous motion.
Narrator: The
group had succeeded many times. Visitors have watched the proceedings in bright
light or even joined the group at the table. It’s clear that there’s no
possibility that the phenomena is produced by trickery. The society’s research
committee under Professor Owen has taken every precaution to obviate fraud and
can state categorically that the phenomena are genuine and paranormal.
(Much rather
drunken sounding singing ‘Up in the air and upside down!’. The table tips
towards one side, until on its side completely).
GO: We found
that Philip, the imaginary communicator, will answer questions put to him by
sitters or visitors. One rap for yes, two raps for no. Philip of course has no
independent existence. He says just what a majority of the sitters happen to think
he ought to say. It is a case of psychokinesis by committee. If a question has
an obvious answer, the response, in the form of one rap or two, comes promptly
and with emphasis. If however, the members of the committee take time to
individually reason out what the question means, or are doubtful as to the
right answer, then the response is feebler and delayed.
Narrator: Dr Joel Whitton,
a medical psychologist, was asked to comment: “Well I’d first like to emphasise
that this is an important experiment because it’s done in the laboratory and it’s
reproduceable. Now from the psychological point of view there are several
considerations. First is, I have to ask myself what are the psychological
conditions necessary to produce this phenomenon? It seems to me that the group
is in a childlike creativity. This is brought on by the playing and the singing
and the humour. The group lets their hair down. As opposed to the adult who
says ‘This phenomena can’t be done because its against the laws of physics’ the
child simply says ‘If I want to do it, it can be done’. Now second, I ask
myself ‘What does this rapping and the table turning mean symbolically? Is it
some type of concentration of energy or er, is it an elaborate defence mechanism
against some deep-seated unconscious conflict? Third, the group is involved in
a joint feeling of mutuality. Each member almost intuitively senses the other
person and their feelings, and as such it has important overtones in various
group programmes.”
One of the
group: I think this Philip experiment has forced me to look at the whole spectrum
of parapsychology. I’ve always believed that there’s a little bit of telepathy
and precognition. But two years ago if you had told me that a group of us would
be able to take this table and move it without any physical force, I, I think I
would have laughed at you.
“This whole
concept has made me much more aware of energy forces around – before you were
aware of but didn’t really think about.”
GO: “I can’t
see any way that any of this can move the table ourselves so there’s got to be
energy or something which would be very interesting if we could find out how it
works.”
Sue: “The experiment
on Philip has been a very exciting thing for me because it’s taken an abstract
thought of mine and made it into a concrete experiment.”
Lorne: “It’s
offered an alternative explanation to me for the theory of spirits of the dead
causing hauntings. The hauntings seem to be real but I have no faith in the departed
spirits theory.”
“I think it’s
been the most exciting parapsychological experiment that I’ve ever taken part
in. We’ve been interested in these physical phenomena for so many years and I
feel that at last we’ve made a breakthrough.”
Narrator: The
group of eight has shown that a group of normal non-mediumistic people can
acquire a kind of psychological skill enabling them to generate a strong physical
force without the aid of spirits or supernatural influence. They have proved
that this force is latent in most ordinary human beings. To gain understanding
of this force they are continuing their work. They hope also that with new and
original variations it will be imitated by other investigators.
II
ESP- Extra
Special People - with Allen Spraggett.
AS: On this
programme you meet ESP – Extra Special People – who explore that shadowy world
that lies on the border between science and superstition, the known and the
unknown. And on the programme today, you won’t believe it, our guest is a
talking table called Philip. Now just a minute, before you tune out, I’ve not
freaked out completely! We’ll explain who and what Philip the talking table is.
I have a guest in human form – Mrs Iris Owen of the Toronto S PR. And of course
Iris, we’ve worked together in the society for some time now. Tell us about
Philip, the talking table, the imaginary ghost – how the whole thing started.
IO: Well it
sounds absolutely crazy of course, but in fact it is a serious scientific experiment.
George and I, my husband, have been interested in this field for many years.
AS: Now let
me just say Iris, because you might be too modest – your husband George Owen is
a distinguished parapsychologist as well as being a noted scientist in other
areas.
IO: Yes
indeed, and we were very fortunate to come to Canada five years ago to devote
most of our time to the fringe areas of science and particularly
parapsychology. This actual experiment arose out of a discussion we were having
one night on ‘what was the nature of a ghost’. And it followed the
investigation that we had done in Toronto of a haunted house where in fact some
of our investigating team had seen what they thought was an hallucination or a
ghost, and we discussed what it could be. Was it really the spirit of departed
people, and we couldn’t believe this was so – but if it was an hallucination
(which was the conclusion we came to), well why can’t we create our own hallucination?
If we could create our own hallucination ourselves, then we would know a bit
more about this. So we decided to make our own ghost. We called the group that
were doing it ‘the ghost-creating group’. We didn’t know at first how to go
about it – there aren’t any do-it-yourself ideas about it. So we decided that
if we were going to prove that it wasn’t a departed spirit we had to invent a story,
a character, not even a well-known story book character would do. One of our
group, Sue, who had a beautiful imagination, invented our ghost for us. And
then we spent a year, and I mean one night every week a for a whole year, we
spent in meditation and thinking about our ghost and trying to conjure up a
vision of him.
AS: Now you
had a character, you invented him, you gave him a name – Philip, and you gave
him a history, and then you tried to get him to communicate. What was the
history of Philip?
IO: Well we
set him in the 1500s in England at the time of Oliver Cromwell. He was a
Cavalier, he had been a supporter of Charles. He was married to a beautiful and
frigid wife Dorothea, married for the sake of joining the estates. He was
riding around his estates one day and he met a beautiful gypsy girl, Margot, dark
eyes, beautiful gypsy girl, and he fell instantly in love with her. Took her
back to the castle where he hid her in the stables or in the dower house, and
later his wife discovered her and blamed her, charged her with witchcraft and said
she’d stolen her husband. And Philip himself was too concerned both for his own
personal safety (by then Cromwell was on the throne) and also for the financial
side of his estates, to defend her, and so she was tried and burnt at the stake.
AS: He was a
craven wretch!
IO: Well we
didn’t think he was quite that craven! In fact afterwards he was so distraught
that he jumped from the battlements of the castle one night, and his body was
found at the foot of the battlements. And then in the story that Sue invented,
every century or so his ghost is seen walking the battlements searching for his
lost love.
AS: OK, how
did you go about getting this imaginary ghost to communicate?
IO: Well as
I say, at first we, we, meditated for a whole year and we didn’t get anything
very much in the way of results, and were beginning to feel a bit despondent
and maybe we were wrong after all. And then we came across the work of some English
experimenters in the British Society for Psychical Research, some eight to nine
years ago, where they had worked on an experiment to make a table rise, to
levitate a table. They were working on what we call (in the trade I was going
to say, but as parapsychologists) the physical phenomena: rappings, movement,
the sound of trumpets, the kind of thing that happened a great deal in the Victorian-type
séance room when spiritualism began, and when this kind of thing was more of a
parlour game than anything in its beginning. But [Kenneth Spatcheldore] had evolved
a theory that if you trained yourself in a certain psychological skill, which
was similar to the Victorian séance room, in other words if you sat around and
sang repetitive songs and you told jokes and you worked in a relaxed atmosphere
and literally ‘got into the spirit of the thing’, you would produce these physical
phenomena, the raps and so on.
At that
stage we said to ourselves well if this works for physical phenomena, why
shouldn’t it produce our ghost? And so we decided to try this. Now we read the
literature very thoroughly and there are many many papers on it. There is a
philosophical reasoning as to why it works – and this is too short a programme
for me to explain it. And we tried it, and the first sitting or two we were a
little bit self-conscious. It’s not very easy, we’re all serious scientifically-minded
people really. And to sit around and do all this sort of nonsense – talk to a
table! We weren’t at that stage thinking we were talking to the table. We were
surprised when suddenly one night we heard a rap from the table. Quite a loud
rap! And we thought, you know – what is this? And we sat there very much
surprised, and I think Dorothy said ‘perhaps it’s Philip!’ and immediately
there was another rap. And so we said ‘Rap once for yes and two for no – are you
Philip?’ and there was another rap.
And so this
did surprise us very much. We carried on a little conversation like this rather
non-plused the first time.
AS: Did you
get movements then rather quickly?
IO: Shortly
afterwards the table kind of slid a bit, and we accused each other of pushing
it, naturally. We couldn’t believe it would move by itself. In fact the first
few months we were watching each other like hawks, and if anybody’s finger
moved the slightest bit – you’re pushing! This sort of thing.
AS: Iris,
we're going to take a break. We’re going to come back and introduce our viewers
to Philip the talking table, and the rest of the Philip group. And we hope Philip
will put in an appearance and do some communicating with us today.
III
(The group are
stood around a table with their fingers on it).
AS: Here we
are, and our guest is Philip the talking table and his eight friends, and you’re
going to be introduced to each one of them in a moment. Right now Philip has
been communicating through some raps.
(Various members
of the group talking in a tone usually applied condescendingly to a child or
animal): Come on – a real loud one! Come on! Say hello! That’s right, now do it
louder. Say hello to all the people. It’s a big audience you’ve got out there.
Say hello to everybody. (The table creaks). Go on, show off. You know you’re a
ham actor. You can do it. A really loud one. Look we don’t want you to move, we
want lots of nice loud raps. Come on! We’ll sing you a song.
AS: Why don’t
we go around the table and each one of you give your name and say hello to
Philip and we’ll ask him to respond.
IO: Hello Philip,
this is Iris, you know me! Say hello. No, he’s not.
Hi Philip,
this is Sidney, are you gong to say hi today? A little one?
AS: I’ve should
say we’ve got a microphone under the table to pick up these ‘pings’ or raps.
(slight
ticking)
It’s Andi.
Gonna say hi to me? You said it before.
Hello Philip,
it’s Bernice, are you gonna say hello tonight? Good, yes…
IO: Louder,
Philip.
Lorne: Hello
Philip! Did I get one there?
You try . Oh
yes! One for Al. He likes Al.
AS: A little
louder, Philip, if you please.
Hi Philip,
it’s Dorothy here! (ooh there’s one)
Hello Philip,
it’s Sue. (a bump and an ooh)
Say hello to
Allen.
AS: Hello
Philip. (thud) – there’s a good one. Another one.
AS: I think
we should say that these raps have come in a number of different circumstances
with outside witnesses present, including a psychiatrist, and they have agreed
that the raps do indeed seem to come from inside the table. They’re not being
produced by anybody here. The microscope is picking up these raps and they do seem
to come from inside the table.
IO: You can
see that all our hands are absolutely still and we’re standing up and our feet
are on a carpeted floor so nobody could be kicking or tapping, or the sort of
things that are usually alleged.
AS: Right.
Why don’t you ramp it up and see if Philip will put on some antics for us.
IO: Oh I’m
sure he will. There’s nothing he likes better. (Much hubbub) Come on! Show them
what you can do! Right up in the air! (The table tips and sways quite violently.
They sing in a drunken fashion. The table almost tips over.) Mind the microphone,
Philip! (One table leg folds under the table. The microphone falls over). Bring
it back here Philip! Mind the microphone! Let’s lift it back!
AS: How many
tables have you demolished since you started?
IO: We’ve
demolished quite a number!
AS: I can
say I was present on one occasion when you were using quite a heavy wooden
table and the leg broke off it that night.
IO: And actually
we have used two or three heavy wooden tables but one of the troubles… (much talking
over her).
Come on!
Right over! Mind the microphone! Don’t knock the mic! What are you doing! Get
away! Chase Sidney then!
AS: Now in
some experiments you have put paper doilies on the table under your hands, to
show that you couldn’t possibly be applying pressure or friction, and yet the
table has bounced around just the same way.
IO: And
sometimes thing will stick to the table, if we put a sweet or something, even though
the table…
AS: I’m
putting my ring onto the table. Do you think it might stay?
IO: Swallow
it right up! Now Philip you’ve got his ring! Bend it! Bend it, Philip! (Much exhorting)
(It falls on the floor. The table leg has bent up again). Not the leg!
AS: I take it
that if you’ve demolished several tables, Philip then doesn’t have a preference
for one
particular table. He moves from one to the other.
IO: Oh yes
any table anywhere. One of the reasons why
we don’t use the big tables quite so much is because we’re frightened about the
house getting damage. Last time we used a wooden garden table it went and
knocked holes in the wall.
AS: And he’s
also produced raps and thumps in the wall, hasn’t he? What about the big
question – has Philip ever been able to get the table off the floor completely
- all four legs?
IO: Yes!
Well why don’t you do it tonight, Philip? He did it once, only about ½ an inch
off the floor, and it only went for two or three feet. But there were two other
witnesses in the room, and er, it was a thick carpeted floor, if it had been…
(indistinct).
AS: Well let’s
try it now.
IO: Come on
this is your big opportunity! Maybe your last opportunity! Come on, right up!
Straight up! Come on! Shall we sing you a song?! Up in the air! (rather drunken-sounding
singing) (The table wobbles and the leg collapses).
AS: He’s
wrecked four tables and now he’s working on his fifth! What about turning the
table upside down – and I know that this happened, getting the raps while the table
is upside down? Let’s do that. Let’s keep it within range of our trusty microphone
here. All right, now the bottom of the table is clearly exposed.
(They crouch
and put their hands on the upturned table)
IO: Hello
Philip! Are you enjoying being here tonight?! Come on, Philip!
Come on Philip,
say hello, are you still there?! (a bump) Aah.
IO: Philip,
if you perform you can have a nice big pint of beer, would you like that? (a
bump)
AS: Now that
was the loudest rap of the evening.
He loves his
beer, hahah. (Rather drunken sounding singing of ‘one hundred bottles of beer
on the wall’ including hiccups and laughing).
IO: Would
you like two bottles of beer? Yes? A little bit louder than that. Let Allen hear
you want two bottles of beer.
AS: Yeah,
there’s a rap. Now all hands are
visible, let’s just dwell on this point. All hands are visible, but at this
point all raps are clearly coming from, it would appear, certainly, from within
that table.
Let’s try it again. Philip, give us a good loud clear rap.
IO: For one bottle
of beer. (Bump) Louder than that!
Louder for
two! Come on Philip. If you want a bottle of beer, rap loudly! Louder, Philip!
Come on Philip, louder! Here comes the microphone! It has to be louder or Allen
won’t buy it! One rap right under the microphone. Here Phil, right here. Come
on Philip, louder. Louder! That’s better! Ooh!
AS: Congratulations
Philip. Alright, let’s stand him up right side up. What sort of questions does
Philip respond to, can we ask him about er… (much laughter) … sex and beer are
his, er.. Well let’s ask him some questions.
IO: Philip
have you got Dorothea with you? No. Have you got Margot with you? Yes!
AS: Now
Margot was his lover, the gypsy girl.
IO: What else
shall we ask him. Oh yes, did you bring.. Is Lileth here?
AS: Now who
is Lileth?
IO: It’s from
another group. Now I told you this was a scientific experiment, and experiments
have to be repeatable. So we decided that if our thesis was true, another group
of people should be able to do the same thing with a different story.
AS: So
Lileth is another imaginary ghost?
IO: Another
imaginary ghost. A heroine of the French Resistance who lived in Canada and was
sent up during wartime to work with the French Resistance. She was betrayed and
shot as a spy by the Germans. And she had a Canadian Officer lover. And Philip
has met Lileth and he’s quite friendly with her.
AS: Can I
ask any of you who would like to answer – now you are all thoughtful
intelligent people. You have professional backgrounds, you’re skilled in your
various fields. How do you really feel about this Philip phenomenon? Sue?
Sue: I think
it is purely a physical thing, coming from the brain, that any human being who
has trained in the skill can do it. It’s just it takes some training to develop
the skill, and I think it’s a source of energy which perhaps we have helped to
find, and then maybe it can someday be used as a source of energy.
AS: Lorne,
how do you feel about it?
Lorne: I
just think that.. in respect to the fact we’ve produced artificially the sort
of effects that you generally get from, what are supposed to be ghosts.
AS: In other
words, the minds of you people working together have been able to produce
movements in this table, raps in answers to your questions – all the things
that traditionally ghosts have done. So are you saying that the traditional
ghost may have been a projection from the minds of living people?
Lorne: That’s
my view.
AS: Do you
all agree with that?
It could be,
it could be that. Yeah. It could be one of the answers to it.
AS: OK let’s
ask Philip a question, we’ve got about one minute left for Philip in this
command performance here. What’s going to get him to give us a good loud
answer, as a kind of grand finale for him. You people know his feelings. Does
he love, what’s the gypsy?
IO: Do you
still love Margot, Philip?
Sue: Do you
want to come on TV again, Philip?
He’s gone
shy all of a sudden.
AS: Are you
still there Philip? (a creak) Give us one more rap for goodbye.
IO: Say
goodbye to Allen.
A real loud
one. Louder than that.
IO: He’s
saying no. He doesn’t want to go.
Give us one
rap, Philip.
We must go
Philip, one loud goodbye for everyone.
Do you miss (Jo?)
Hmm ?hmm. Louder still. Say goodbye George.
AS: We’re
going to have to say goodbye to Philip for now, and we’ll be back in a moment
to ‘rap’ this up with some more information about Philip.
IV
AS: My guest
on Extra Special People is Iris Owen from the Toronto Society for Psychical
Research. And Iris, that must be about the wildest sequence ever seen on
television! A group of grown people with a table bouncing around and answering
questions. But let’s get serious now. It’s a marvellous party game, having a
talking table. But there’s something deeper than that involved. What the implications
of this Philip experiment?
IO: Well of
course as you say, Allen, there is a serious scientific experiment. And there
are two aspects of it that are important. Firstly, the part that is of interest
to the physicists – how does a combined thought from a group of people
transform itself into something that can produce a physical effect such as a
noise or a table movement.
AS: I should
say that to me these pings from within the table are the most singular thing
about the phenomenon. And I have put my hand on the table more than once and
have felt the vibration, the pulsation, directly under it.
IO: Yes, it
is the most extraordinary thing.
AS: The
second thing –
IO: The
second thing is of interest to psychologists. The physical, the psychological background
of a group of people getting themselves into a state of mind where they can in
fact share a common thought and a, produce these things.
AS: For one
thing, you have to be in a kind of childlike frame of mind, don’t you?
IO: We
describe it as a psychological skill, and it’s learnt just as in the same way
as when you’re learning to the piano you have to start with the scales and go all
the way through until you can play something in the nature of classical music,
this is a psychological skill that we learn, in this way. And this is why it’s,
erm, it doesn’t happen as often as one would think it must.
AS: Well
maybe you’ll have some more imaginary ghosts around. Well, Iris Owen, it’s been
marvellous having you on the programme, and we will be back again with more
Extra Special People, and we’ll be talking to interesting folks who inhabit
that shadowy world that lies on the border between science and superstition,
the known and the unknown. They’re all unusual. They’re all Extra Special People.
