Can We Explain The Poltergeist?

A transcript of the short documentary programme here on YouTube. Dr A R George Owen, author of the book of the same name, presents some witnesses of poltergeists, including the doctor involved in the Sauchie case (which is described more fully in his book). Dr Owen also later led the 'Philip Experiment'.

It's so refreshing to watch something that isn't a hammed-up 'paranormal extravaganza' - but this is 1965 and not 2020. People just recount their stories while sitting in their living rooms. There are no silly reconstructions and no screaming. ARG Owen stays overnight in one of the houses and literally nothing happens. 



Presenter: Do you believe in ghosts? No? Well perhaps not. But then a week ago, neither did the Howells family, who live in this house in Rhondda [jump in film]... Martia, 20, her 25 year old husband David, and their two young children, are convinced that the house has been invaded by a poltergeist. Mrs Howells describes what’s happened, on Monday afternoon.

Mrs Howells: Well it was about five o’clock in the evening and I’d just poured my little girl a cup of tea in my mother’s room. I went up back to the kitchen, as I came up this bottle came flying towards  me. And of course I shut the door to protect myself. I opened it again and I seen this other bottle. So I just picked up the children and ran out the house. As I ran out my husband was coming down the street here, and he ran straight in the house, and by the time he got in the there all of the place was turned upside down.

Dr George Owens (Trinity College Cambridge): A strange word, ‘poltergeist’ – it comes from old German folklore. It means a noisy spirit. In fact it’s just one of the many European words for ‘things that go bump in the night’. Our ancestors thought of the poltergeist as something just akin to the spirits of nature that haunt meadow and field and make noises in the mines. In fact their idea of the poltergeist was very like that of the modern child’s conception of an elf or goblin. 

In one very famous case 300 years ago – in the house of John Mompesson, the squire of Tidworth, on Salisbury Plain, people heard the beating of a drum. “For an hour together it would beat Roundheads and Cuckolds, and several other points of war, as well as any drummer. After this they would hear a scratching under the children’s beds, as if by something that had iron talons.”

Voiceover: It would turn with mighty violence and applied itself wholly to my youngest children, whose bedsteads it would beat, when there has been many of strangers as well as ourselves present in the room, that we did expect that at every blow expect they would have fallen into pieces. Then it will run under the bedsteads and scratch, as if it had iron talons. And then heave up the children and the bed, and follow them from room to room, and come to none else but them.

ARGO: In 1695 on this site where the Divinity School now stands, there was a house where a poltergeist was raging. ‘There came by Mr Isaac Newton, a very learned man, fellow of Trinity College, and seeing several scholars about the door – “Oh ye fools” says he, “Will you never have any witch? Know ye not that all such things are mere cheats and impostures? Fie Fie, go home for shame!” And he would not go in.’ 

            Superstition had to give way to scepticism. Scepticism seems natural in these scientific times, symbolised so well by the sweeping curves of the great dome of New Hall, calculated I sincerely trust according to Newtonian mechanics to withstand the pull of gravity. But do the scientists really know all the forces that there are in nature? When I was young they admitted of only two: magnetism and gravity. Now they tell us there are two more: the atomic forces of the strong and the weak interaction. All this must I think make the layman ask – is this the lot, or are there not other powers at work in the universe? 

But the scientists are right in requiring us only to believe in things for which there is real evidence. Evidence on poltergeists has not been easy to collect. For the reason that poltergeist outbreaks actually occur far more rarely than even the uncommon crime of murder. But statistics do disclose two odd and curious facts. It seems that in every afflicted household the strange happenings tend to be mysteriously connected with just one member of the family. This person is usually a young person, someone in the age group 11 years up to 21 years old. And here perhaps we ought to pause for thought. Perhaps it really is all trickery. Perhaps it really is the type of mischief that a young lad - like that - might be wanting to get up to. However, what of this housewife, 22 year old Martia Howells of Swansea. She seems to me to be a most sincere and truthful witness.

Mrs Howells: It was about three days after we moved into Rhondda Street, my husband and I went to bed, and we woke up feeling as if somebody was choking us. My husband he opened the windows and went downstairs to see if any gas had been left on, but nothing like that had happened. So we went to bed, we thought no more of that. Then my husband always locks the doors before going to bed, and one night I had to go downstairs and the door was open. So I locked it, went back to bed and told him he didn’t lock the door, but he said he had. Then when we went downstairs in the morning the door was open again. These things happen over a period of months. Then one afternoon I was having tea with my mother in her room, and it was on the Monday, and she said that she had to go across the shop, so I said alright I said I’m going back to my room now to do a bit of work. So as I went out the children come down the passage behind me, and I opened the door of my room, and I seen a bottle rise off the mantelpiece. I thought I was seeing things. I seen the bottle coming towards me so I shut the door to protect myself, and the bottle smashed against the back of the door. So I opened the door again, and I seen another bottle rising off the mantelpiece. So I just shut the door and picked up my children, and went and waited on the doorstep for my mother to come home. So she came back and I told her what had happened. So she said to me, ‘Don’t be so daft,’ she said. So we went back into the room and by that time all my furniture was upside down. So I waited on the doorstep again until my husband came home from work, and well we didn’t say nothing about it to anybody, we just cleaned up the mess. 

So then Tuesday, nothing happened strange at all. It was on the Wednesday when my little girl was in nursery school. It was about five to three, my mother was out in my room so I said to her that I’d better go out and find one and catch the bus. So she said alright I’ll get the knitting from my room and come back in here with the baby. Alright, I said. So I went to get the bus for school, and when I come back my mother was on the doorstep so I asked her what was the matter and she said the same things had happened again. That all my furniture was upside down. So we both went in to have a look, so I could see that my room was in the same kind of a mess, so we went out the back kitchen to see if anything had been touched out there. Well that was alright, nothing had been touched. So we went back, we went upstairs then to see if anything had been touched upstairs. And upstairs was alright. So I said come on wait on the doorstep for my husband to come home again. So we waited, we didn’t hear no sound of anything at all. 

So when he came home I said that my room was in the same kind of mess. And then we went on to the kitchen, and my gas stove was all turned up, well we didn’t hear any sound of anything. Then we went upstairs to go to see if the bedrooms were alright, and we couldn’t open the bedroom door. So my husband said that he thinks that we better call the police. So I told him, I was crying and I said, we better not call the police because we couldn’t tell them our furniture was flying about by itself! Well anyway he called the police and the police had to force the bedroom door to get in. And my big double bed was on top of the baby’s cot behind the door. And well he always used to go to bed in the afternoon and I don’t know why I didn’t put him then. And if he’d have been in it he would have been killed.

ARGO: I don’t think there was any trickery there. But we can do better than this. At Sauchie in Scotland, a few years back, a little girl of 11 years old, Virginia Campbell, was the centre of intense poltergeist activity observed by many reliable witnesses, including the family physician, Dr William Logan. He was called into the case because at school her teacher had seen a desk rise and float about 2 inches above the ground. Dr Logan recalls some of his experiences of five years ago.

Dr Logan: My first involvement with the Virginia Campbell poltergeist was in the evening of Saturday 26th of November 1961. I was called to the house because of the incidents and happenings that had been taking there during that night, and as it turned out, on previous nights. When I arrived at the house the householders were in a state of excitement and tension, and informed me that there had been knockings and noises and pieces of furniture being moved, and that something odd was going on. So I went up to see the child, who was lying in bed looking fairly relaxed despite all this commotion that had been going on, and I asked her to try and forget as much as possible that I was in the room beside her. After I had been in the room for about, oh, ten or fifteen minutes, I noticed that one of the pillows beside Virginia was beginning to move in a rather unusual fashion. If you can imagine Virginia lying with her head on this pillow here, and another pillow beside her, and this pillow started to turn in a rotatory fashion, thus. In addition I noticed round about the same time or shortly afterwards, that there was an impression or indentation beginning to occur as if something was either pulling from inside or pushing, but there was no obvious physical force bringing this movement about. 

I checked thoroughly that Virginia herself was in no position to bring about these odd movements, both by observation and by checking her position of her hands and feet. Furthermore there was no other person close enough to Virginia or the pillow to bring this about. I waited for a little while, and only one other phenomenon occurred and this was a puckering of the bedclothes. Now again, if you can try and imagine this piece of cloth as part of the coverlet on Virginia’s bed, the bedclothes appeared to be pulled up and pulled towards Virginia, as if some force was trying to pull this coverlet. One of the noises was a very characteristic sawing sound (he draws his fingernail over the material several times). The other noise that was present was a knocking, tapping noise similar to this (he flicks the arm of the chair repeatedly, fast). After a short while we decided to go home thinking that perhaps Virginia would settle down and go to sleep once we had left. Just as we were going out the door a very unusual thing happened. Or it seemed unusual at the time. That was that the noises, the knockings, seemed to take on a character, in that they became extremely hurried and agitated, as if something was trying to get us to stay in the room or attract the attention to the child in the bed. The noises became as I said agitated, something like this (he flicks faster). And that is the end of my own personal contact with these phenomena, but I have been given permission to read extracts from a diary that I suggested a close relative of the child should keep, shortly after the events started.

She noted down very carefully in her own words – by the way, this, erm, diary has never been published or read in any form before to the public, erm, and she was very kind in allowing me to read some extracts from it tonight.

I would like to read the first the description of the first night on which the phenomena started. It’s dated Tuesday 22nd of November 1960. At about 10.30 pm Margaret and Virginia were lying in bed. There was a noise like a ball bouncing on the floor. I looked under the beds in the room but couldn’t see anything. No sooner had I left the room when it started again. Margaret and Virgina went downstairs thinking that perhaps a mouse was under the bed, for a brush. The thing seemed to follow them down the stairs. 

Her friend had just been visiting the house, and after he left, I quote: ‘An apple jumped out of the dish. Virginia ate it. I went away to the phone. Virginia was in the house with dad. He said while I was away an apple came out of the dish three times. The pot came off the cabinet and hit Virginia on the nose. It settled on the chair just before I came back.’

Again we read: ‘A piece of chocolate jumped off the sideboard. Also a pencil. A brillo pad came out of the kitchen into the living room. The light went on twice. Virginia was using the cleaner. It went off and the rubber flew off the handle. There was a knocking under the table. Virginia gave three knocks. Then there were three knocks back.’

Later she says: ‘Nothing happened this day. There was knocking on the table at dinner time. Someone was punching the girls in bed.’

And on another occasion: ‘The top of the hot water bag was open, and there was scraping… The girls were getting pinched sore… Virginia’s leg was getting tickled. There has been writing on the girls faces for the past three nights… Virginia’s lips went bright red three times, and there was a noise like a ball bouncing.’ 

Incidentally this ‘bright red’ description, really, as far as I can make out, what she really intended to express, was that Virginia’s lips appeared to glow bright red, and this she saw herself.

‘The bed cover turned red. It was a green cover. There was a noise like somebody walking across the floor… There was knocking on the bed, also on the mattress.’

And on occasions she writes ‘All went well during the past two weeks’. And she goes on again, ‘there was a lot of knocking on the bed this morning. Virginia was getting nipped.’

Until we get to the last statement in the book, in which she simply states , it’s dated Sunday 23rd of April 1961: ‘There was a knocking on the cupboard door.’

ARGO: The Sauchie poltergeist case is to my mind a wonderfully diagnostic one. A living person, Virginia Campbell, was for some weeks at no wish of her own, the centre of a mysterious force. This force was fitful and capricious; sometimes it moved solid objects. At other times it produced strange sounds. Here is a tape recording made by Dr Logan. (A shriek. Four fast knocks. Five knocks. Three knocks.)

But, unlike the good people of Tidworth, I do not think that it was a demon or a goblin or yet a disembodied spirit. I think it was a force. A force admittedly unknown to orthodox science, but yet a force proceeding in some way from Virginia herself. Until recently, in fact until two weeks ago, I thought of the Sauchie poltergeist case as the very pattern and type of all poltergeist cases. Now I have to tell you that I am beginning to think that there may be yet another kind of case of this sort: in some ways different, and in some ways akin to the old notion of the haunted house. And so I am going to ask you to come with me (in spirit of course!) to North Fleet in Kent. 

This is 16 Waterdales, Northfleet Kent. Built about 30 years ago, it seems a perfectly normal house, and not the kind we would expect to be haunted. But four years ago a young couple, Mr and Mrs Maxstead, moved in. Quite often when Mr and Mrs Maxtead were sitting downstairs in their sitting room, which is beneath where I am now, they would hear the sound of footsteps crossing the floor here in this room. Although in fact it was at the time absolutely empty. Another thing which puzzled them a great deal was that a strange smell permeated the house. An unpleasant chemical kind of smell, it came and went mysteriously. But the Maxteads stuck it out despite all their troubles and bewilderment until finally Mrs Maxwell [sic] saw a strange apparition. She awoke in the middle of the night - in fact just about the time it is now! She saw coming towards her what seemed to be the figure of a little girl about six years old. But as the vision advanced, it grew strangely taller and taller until it turned into a figure seen in profile and rather indistinct, but bending over her in an uncanny kind of way. After this, not unnaturally, the Maxsteads thought that enough was perhaps enough, and they moved out. But the house, though empty, was not at peace, as Mrs Margaret Harrison, who lives next door, can tell us.

Margaret Harrison: The noise started off in the hall first, then it came like a – well you can’t very well describe it, it was like a child’s ball falling down the stairs. And it was, it was, a sound it was going (she smacks her hands four times) like that all the way down the stairs, you know. And then it sort of shot, the sound shot up into the bedroom to where I was, and it was like a scratching noise, you know, under the bed. And it sort of, as if it was bonking up the bed. But it wasn’t just in one part of the bed, you know it was all over underneath. And it was sort of scratching all the time, you know, but it wasn’t a sort of a clawing noise, it was like this all the time (she scrabbles about continually with her fingers on the arm of the chair), you know, under the bed. 

ARGO: Although Mrs Harrison lives next door, her bedroom is in actual fact above the stairway of number 16. After the Maxteads, Mr and Mrs Essex moved into the house. They too were persecuted. They also heard footsteps in the bedroom when no one was there. But also noise of furniture moving. They too had a strange smell seeping through the house, but this time it was that of something old and musty rather than something chemical. Then one night Mr Essex was awakened by a strange whistling noise in his ears. He discovered his bed was being shaken. Indeed, it was being lifted up. Beside the bed the weirdest of phantoms was forming itself. It glowed with a pinkish orange light. It was transparent at the edges, but queerest and most peculiar of all, it was in the form of a woman without a head. 

Well, I’ve spent now some six hours or so in the house at night. Nothing has so far happened. But I propose to stay on here until dawn – hoping, waiting for something to turn up. 

ARGO: Well, the dawn did come, and nothing happened to me. I was not unduly disappointed because these things are notorious wayward and fitful. However Northfleet did leave me with an unanswered question. Is it possible that sometimes a place and the people in it can conspire together to generate a poltergeist energy? One big question hangs over the whole subject – why is it that some people and not others can be a centre for the poltergeist force? We know a little about this – we know that they tend to be young, are more likely to be girls than boys. We know that they are basically healthy, indeed rather intelligent but possibly a trifle highly strung. Stress, it seems and emotional tension, can act as triggers helping to set off the manifestation. But clearly this cannot possibly be all, or otherwise poltergeists would afflict every home in the land. One thing is certain: these stories have happy endings. The effects are short-lived. Virginia Campbell today is a normal, happy and charming teenager. 

What is the origin of the poltergeist force? I wish I knew. I regret I cannot tell you. All I know is that it exists. Why has it stayed unrecognised for so long? Perhaps it’s because of the great variability of poltergeist cases. A milk bottle flew up, said Mrs Howells. An apple rose out of the dish, said Dr Logan. There were noises galore at Sauchie, and yet everything happened in complete silence at Swansea. Yet, where sounds did happen, it’s very striking how similar they were – the scratchings and the bouncings: long ago at Tidworth, and in our own time at Northfleet and in Scotland. I think myself, that although its physics and its mode of application is mysterious and obscure, the poltergeist force itself has its origin in living human beings, and not in ghosts or hauntings. However, the Northfleet case remains very puzzling to me, and something of an exception to my theoretical scheme. There the poltergeist activity, the physical phenomena, were all it seems attached to the house and not to the particular people in it. Just what influence it is and what awoke it to activity at 16 Waterdales, and why it has brooded over the house these four years past, is something that is going to remain for the time being, unknown.

Hubbardsville NY Encounter

From the video posted on Youtube (Fava Films).


The Hubbardsville NY Encounter
Testimonial II by Lou Piazza

Hello. My name is Louie Piazza. I’m here to tell about you a story – something that occurred in my life back in July of 1991. It was a Wednesday night. I’d gone fishing with a friend of mine,  Frederick Curie. Pretty significant occurrence. As we were coming downriver at the end of the fishing trip. Lost a paddle on the way, which we can’t explain! There was – what preceded the thing that wound up occurring, as we were coming down, I don’t know, we were probably a couple hundred yards from where we have to get out of the water, to put the canoe back on the truck -  Freddie was standing up because he had to take my paddle. I’m sitting down enjoying the nice warm summer night, it was a balmy summer night. July in upstate New York is a beautiful time. All of a sudden, Freddie started – I don’t know, we were about 150-200 yards away from our site, and Freddy was getting very excited. And he’s asking me, Louie, you see that?! Louie you see that?! And I’m wondering – you know at first, what’s he seeing that’s getting him so excited? I could see a fog on the left side of me. And there was no fog anywhere around us. There was no fog behind me, no fog in front of me, no fog to the right of me. Just to the left of me, because that’s the way I was facing. And Freddy’s ‘Do you see that?” And I’m getting a little nervous because I see the fog and I don’t see anything else. He had a better vantage point because I had taller grass in front of me, from sitting down low in the canoe and he’s in the standing position. We’re in a big 17 ft [c?] canoe. And when you’re on a stretch it’s very easy to stand. 

All of a sudden we start coming around, and as we’re coming closer I could see the fog plain as day now. Er, and more foliage. And at this point I don’t know again what Freddy was seeing, because of my vantage point. And as we start pulling up, I could see this tripod-like thing. It wasn’t a tripod, no bars or anything. But it was kind of tripod shape. And it had amber lights. I don’t remember if they were vertical or horizontal, I don’t know which way they went but I remember seeing amber lights on this thing. As we were approaching, coming around – from the top of this thing, a light wound up coming round. And it started shining on Freddy and then it came around to me. Now the weird thing is, that the light came around but there’s no light on him and there’s no light on me. Which was unexplainable. Now here’s the damn canoe paddle’s gone. And now I’ve got a light shining on the both of us and there’s no light shining on him or me. How could something come around and there’s no light on you?

So now I’m becoming nervous, and Freddy’s like ‘Louie, you see that? What is that?’ and he starts yelling ‘Hello! Hello! Hello!’ and he’s trying to make contact with the… with something that he had seen. And after the light got on the both of us I got pretty nervous, as I said, and we wound up coming down closer, and we start inching closer and closer to an old beaver dam. And at that point, I wind up seeing these two beings. And as plain as day, they – were human form, humanoid form, human form. Just like us, I’d say 5’6, 5’6 and a half, no taller than that. They were human figures. And the figures that I wound up seeing, uh, one was bent over and there was another one standing behind it. And I’m looking at these.. uh figures, and I’m quite nervous. How could you not be? You know, they looked like naked bodies. Very very white. I don’t want to say translucent, because I could make out appendages, I could make out arms, I could make out legs, a head. I don’t recall any ears. The one in the back, I don’t know if it was foliage or what, it looked like there was a l ittle bit of hair. But the weird anomaly that I recall, uh most of all, was when this thing was behind the other one, I looked and – there’s no genitalia. And that kinda really freaked me out. You see two beings, they look human. Human like. There’s no sleeves, it didn’t look like it was any type of clothing on them at all, no pant leg, no cuffs. Yet, I could plainly make out these two figures.

Frank’s sitting here, ‘Hello, Hello!’, he’s still trying to make contact with these two individuals, or whatever they was. And I kind of freaked out. To be honest, I grabbed hold of the front of my canoe and I started jumping in the water, and I nearly knocked Freddy out of the canoe. And I uh proceeded to pull the canoe out of the water, off the dam actually, because we were stuck on the dam. But while we were on the dam I could see everything plain as day. I could see the… the tripod-like thing with the amber lights, and these beings over here. I was pretty freaked out, I’m not going to lie about it. I had a daughter that was just born, and I wanted to get out of there. So as we pulled out --- gotten out of the water, pulled the canoe out, wound up throwing the canoe on the truck, driving down the road. And as we’re driving down the road, about a mile, a mile and a half, Freddy asked me to pull over. We pull over, he wanted to go back. And I didn’t want to go back. I wanted to alert the authorities, because I believed something like this the authorities should know about, because it was an unexplained phenomenon that had wound up occurring. And, uh, Freddy was a little insistent on going back, and I was a little more stubborn, and I was behind the wheel! Because it freaked me out quite a bit, you know I’m not going to lie about it. You know because I don’t know what the hell I saw. Because all I know, it was something that I’ve never… (shakes head) never came in contact with before. Been all over the place – I was in the military, I travelled all over, and I’ve never seen anything like it. And, uh, we wound up going home. 

And a few days later, which was a Saturday, we decided to go back. And we wound up going back down, to the site. We’re walking up to the spot and lo and behold here’s 30, 40 foot round, I’d say, uh, section of woods. Now it’s July, you’ve got foliage all over the place. Here’s this spot that’s just coffee ground dirt. It’s the best way of explaining it. It was so fine it was like coffee grounds. How that could have occurred in such a short period of time is beyond my imagination. I’ve tilled my garden, I’ve done a lot of different things, and I’ve never – I’ve worked landscaping, and I’ve seen screeded soil, and I‘ve never seen it that fine in my life. Here’s this fine like coffee grounds. Not a… not an ant, not a, not a footprint from a deer, nothing. And there’s all these big mature trees, and everywhere else you look there’s nothing but foliage. And I kind of found that to be pretty freaky.

A few days later, and I wish I’d took a camera, which I didn’t. I mean I’m called the camera man any time we go fishing I always take a camera, and I didn’t have the darn camera with me! I was pretty shook up from it, and excited to get back and look at it. And I.. I guess with the excitement of what I might see, I just forgot to bring the damn thing, and I wish I did. And there was like three mounds in the dirt, they wound up coming across which was pretty cool. But, you go in the mounds, it’s like maybe there’s something buried here – reached right down, Freddy was reaching right down in the soil , I’m reaching right down in the soil and it’s there it is coffee grounds. You know, just a strange anomaly that occurred in my life. And it’s something I’ll never forget, and something I just never wanted to tell too many people about, because I figured they’d think I was crazy. It was something that we talked about from time to time, and it’s something that does need to get out because it is a true story. And there are those things that happen in our lives that are worth mentioning. And I wish I’d mentioned it years ago to the authorities so we could have actually known exactly what we saw. But we didn’t, and you know maybe we should have gone back there like Freddy wanted. And investigated it further. But I decided I didn’t want to. And I was driving and if it was today I would definitely extended my hand. And tried to make contact, better contact with these individuals! I do remember at one point them waving… just came to the side this wave, and down. And I don’t remember exactly when that wound up occurring, but I do remember the wave. And like I said I was, I don’t want to say frightened… it was just a pretty weird thing that wound up occurring, and I had a daughter that was just born, and I wanted to get home to her. But it er, let’s just say Spooked. It spooked me enough not to investigate it further... I wish I’d turned around. You know. And we didn’t. And it’s an actual event that did happen. And I’ve got no real, no reason to make this stuff up. I am glad that I was able to partake in and see an anomaly such as this. And I think it was a pretty fascinating thing, and a blessing to see it.

 Lou I have a question for you about the beings you saw. Do you recall anything about the facial features? The eyes, the nose, the mouth, the ears  - anything that really stood out?

Yes, their eyes. Their eyes were bigger than our eyes. If you were to … take out the eyeball of a human being and look at a skeleton, the orbital, large, the way it is, that was about the size of eye was. I would say about this, it was … they were larger than our eyes, and they were dark black, the eyes. I don’t really recall ears or anything like that. There was no genitalia!! None whatsoever. I’m looking at these things plain as day. They were.. god almighty.. thirty yards at the most away from me. And I’m looking at these things plain as day. I hunt, I fish… These, these – there was no genitalia, and that – you can’t explain that. And like I said, no clothing. If they were naked... And I don’t know, maybe they were, something was wrapped around them (shakes head). I don’t know. -

When you saw them, when you actually got the best look at them, were they parallel with the boat, behind you, or in front of you in the boat. What vantage point were they at?

  I was at the front and they were literally as we were coming by directly right at the side of me. Literally I could have shaken hands with them.

 - So the closest you were to either of these entities was, in feet, how close were you?

 … The closest point was probably when they waved, you know, uh, I don’t know – 20 feet. 30 feet at the most. At that point. And then we wound up at the beaver dam and when we came closer, here we’re stuck on this beaver dam. And that’s when I wound up seeing –plain as day, they’re standing there. And Like I said, one was bent over, the other was standing straight up behind it. You know, they were as apprehensive as we were, I would say. But then there was… I never felt threatened to the point where I felt like I was in danger. I think it was more spooked by the fact that I’ve never encountered anything like this before. It was unexplainable. I never seen anything like it. How do you explain a human being without genitalia? Be it a male or a female. I don’t care if you haven’t… you know, it’s just spooked. That’s the part that spooked me out, I knew they wasn’t of human form at that point.
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